[LISA LEWIS] The Am I Ok? Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith Fringes, the Holistic Counseling Podcast, and Beta Male Revolution, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. Welcome to the Am I Ok? Podcast, where you will discover that being highly sensitive is something to embrace and it’s actually a gift you bring to the world. We will learn together how to take ownership of your high sensitivity, so you can make positive changes in your life, in the lives of others, and it’s totally okay to feel this way. I’m your host, Lisa Lewis. I’m so glad you’re here for the journey. Welcome to today’s episode of the Am I Ok? Podcast. I’m your host, Lisa Lewis. Thank you so much for tuning in. Over the next few weeks, I’m going to be providing a series of episodes where each week I interview a couple’s therapist about how they would use their method, a couple’s therapy, looking through the lens of a highly sensitive couple. In each episode, I ask the couple’s therapists specific questions about relationships between a highly sensitive person and a non-highly sensitive person. We talk about what issues may show up in the relationship and some of the best self-care practices for highly sensitive couples. I would love to hear your feedback about these episodes. Please email me at lisa@amiokpodcast.com. Today my guest is Erika Boissiere. Erika is a couple’s therapist and has a private practice in the bay area of San Francisco, California. She brings with her a unique skillset into her practice as she formally worked in financial services, most notably at BlackRock as a strategist. She also teaches at the University of San Francisco along with writing for Forbes as a contributing author. Erika is married to another couple’s therapist, has two young children along with a 17-year-old dog that the family adores. Welcome to the podcast, Erika. [DR. ERIKA BOISSIERE] Thank you, Lisa. It’s nice to be here. [LISA] So glad to have you here. I’m in Southern California. You’re in Northern California. [ERIKA] Yes. [LISA] So I like to ask all my guests that come on the show, if you consider yourself a highly sensitive person or not. If so, can you just share a little bit about your story? [ERIKA] Sure. I don’t, you know, when I first heard the term I don’t know if I would’ve considered myself a highly sensitive person. I think actually if anything as I learn more about this grouping and reading the books that are all about this subject, I do think actually motherhood, I’m a mom of two, as you guys learn in the intro, has brought on sensitivities that I don’t think I was totally aware of. So were they there all along and this sort of brought out? Probably. So the short answer is probably not in the first part part of my life but more and more as I sort of get overstimulated myself with being a mom of two. [LISA] Would you mind sharing what you noticed as you became a mother, what sensitivities came up for you? [ERIKA] Well, I can even tell you about last night. I think it’s the over stimulus that I find myself, I’ve got so many tools, obviously as being a therapist at my disposal, but when the world is really loud, when the kiddos are really loud, when it’s 8:30 at night and you are truly flat out of gas and that sensation that you have where noises are just louder, your ability to process information in the way that I normally would be able to on any given day just feels raw. That’s when I click in most empathically to my sensitivity, because it just feels overwhelming. So yes, 8:30 at night, last night, I was right there feeling all those incredible emotions and obviously trying my hardest to manage them. [LISA] And finding this out about yourself, are you able to link it to before motherhood or just through your life that, oh, maybe I’ve always been over, I get over stimulated? [ERIKA] No, it’s a really good question. I think again, because I mean, I grew up obviously well before so much of this research would’ve been done. I don’t think I ever would’ve coined myself as a sensitive person. Even right now, I sort of probably again, sort of toggle between the two worlds a bit, but no, I do think it was there all along. I was an athlete for a long time, and I think that also has its own sort of inward sensitivities when you’re not performing at your best or where you think you should be. But again, I don’t think that was vocalized necessarily, but again, a very largely internal world that I probably sort of experienced and largely sort of again, left internal and did not vocalize. So the answer probably is, yes, so is there along. [LISA] How has your career and financial services, how has that contributed to your work as a therapist? [ERIKA] Such a good question also. You’re just sort of nailing some important stuff. So financial services or corporate sector, however you want to sort of coin it, largely not sensitive and sort of very direct, especially in finances, there’s definitely a right and a wrong answer. There’s definitely a way to do things. That world, again, maybe if we sort of even toggle back to what I was saying just a bit earlier I was drawn to initially when I had graduated college, it felt black and white, it felt sort of mathematical. It felt clean. It felt, you know when you’re 22, making those big decisions of what to be, to grow when you grow up, I was sort of drawn to this sector. Then as I went through that space for almost a decade I found myself over that sort of duration, just pulling further and further away. It was not my calling. I didn’t totally feel like I fit in that grouping, even though again, I thought that it would be my space. So made a career transition in my late twenties to become a marriage and family therapist with a specialty in couples counseling. This place that I am in now and have been for obviously some time, I feel very, very, very comfortable. This does feel like the right fit. It does feel like I’m in the right sort of house, so to speak. So yes, those two worlds while they feel really different and they are very different, I do still think that the financial services sector to some degree lends a hand, that whole decade experience that I had into my couple’s counseling, because I do bring up like practicality and obviously empathy around that sort of the corporate stressors, but I very much feel at home as a marriage and family therapist. [LISA] Yes, you can definitely help people that maybe are in that industry because you’ve worked there and you know what that’s like and help them if they’re feeling stuck. Yes, exactly in a relationship or just something about themselves. So this sounds like a second career as a therapist? [ERIKA] Yes, it is very much so. That brought its own trepidation, but yes, a second career that felt very dramatic some time ago, but not nearly as dramatic now, obviously. [LISA] Yes. I just wanted to highlight that and especially like for listeners, our younger listeners that you may start out on one career path and then it’s not working anymore. And you can switch. It’s not like locked in stone. I did the same thing. This is my second career as a therapist myself. So like life, as you grow older, as you change and you find out really more about yourself you adapt and you’re flexible. [ERIKA] I’m glad you said that because I think again, if I go back to 22 years of age, I sort of thought of myself as a certain type of person. Then as I got to know myself more and more and more, and sort of accept parts of me that I hadn’t either paid attention to, or I all sorts of psychological sort of under packings in there. But as I got to know myself more and sort of again, sort of look outward and inward to who I wanted to be that very helped the shift. Scary, but that was a huge piece to this puzzle. [LISA] I was looking at your website and you’re the founder of the Relationship Therapy Group. I was wondering what motivated you to create a group practice? [ERIKA] That was, again, maybe this was like back to your earlier question of a little bit of what does corporate maybe, how does it sort of possibly blend in? I think when I first started out in school, I deeply wanted to become a couple’s therapist. That for me felt very clear, which was nice to have that clarity. I also found that there wasn’t a lot, I mean, and maybe it’s just San Francisco-based, or maybe it’s more universal, but there just aren’t a lot of therapists that only specialize in couples. Couples are just at different relationships. Rather you can swap out the words. They just bring a different type of energy, a different type of skillset that you need as a therapist. So I wanted to create a small consortium of practitioners, like-minded practitioners that all we do is work with relationships and hopefully bring in some really rock solid research and tools and masters and highly specialized with this particular group. [LISA] What is your approach to couples therapy? [ERIKA] No easy question. Probably the short answer is a little bit of a blend. A lot of times couples call us and they’re more or less in a bit of crisis, whether it’s a sort of interpersonal personal crisis or the relationship is in a crisis. So they come to us and sometimes it can feel a bit like an ER room where you’re sort of triaging a bit. So in that space helping clients and couples more on the behavioral side with tools, skills, how to navigate sad crisis, that is really, really important. It’s helpful in grounding the clients in that particular space. So there’s a bit of a behavioral component to our approach, which means tools, skills, resources, et cetera, but we have found abundantly over and over and over again that you can give a client a tool all day long. Really the recipe or the long-lasting ingredient is will they use it at 10 o’clock at night when they’re knee deep in a fight with their partner? And largely a tool on its own. It’s really hard to translate that from therapy, like the session hour into that 10 o’clock living room fight. So we also do what we call family of origin and work, where that means we bring in sort of the architecture of what they learned in their childhood, how their parents or their primary caregivers interacted with each other, how they interacted with the client. So we do quite a bit of awareness building. We honor some of those skills that they learned in childhood. We also name what skills aren’t, where it’s sort of things that they learn in childhood that are no longer helpful. Then we also pair that with a skill or tool. So for the therapists out there, it’s a little bit of psychodynamic meets cognitive behavioral therapy. For the normal people out there that means we really actually care deeply about you being able to remember and have deep awareness around how you relate to another and then also have the motivation and the desire to want to change. So that’s what we, more or less do. [LISA] Wow. That sounds really powerful. What’s like the average time do you recommend for couples to commit to therapy? Is it six months, a year, a year and a half? [ERIKA] Almost every new client that we interact with asks a version of that question. It is so hard to give a firm number. We do say that we try to work our absolute hardest and fastest and most efficient as we possibly can. Again, couples have different relationships, have sort of a different energy and that, again, they’re in that crisis space. So wanting to triage that as best as we can, obviously. Some clients I’ve worked with six, 10 sessions, some have gone on for well past six months. It very, very much depends on what the client’s bringing in, how quickly they change, sort of what’s getting in the way, am I the right therapist? There’s so many variables. So it’s a pretty broad range. That being said, we’re also very transparent with our clients around whether we think the process is working and obviously guarding the same feedback from and having that transparency really helps empower the client to decide for themselves if this process is working for them. As we all know, therapy is expensive. It’s time consuming, even with Zoom. There’s a time commitment that so many people have just a struggle to meet with. So it’s a pretty big range. So long short answer to that. [LISA] Yes, it is a long, long short answer. I mean, yes, as you said, it just depends on each individual client or couple. How do you know when, in therapy we use termination, the couples ready to terminate and move on? Like, they’re done with therapy. I mean, in a positive way, they’ve completed what they’ve come to do. They’ve met their goals. [ERIKA] How do we know when that time has come? [LISA] Yes. Uh-huh. [LISA] It’s really interesting because sometimes I’ll have a really firm, like this client feels or these clients feel ready. They feel they’re happy. They know how to fight. They know how to communicate better. There’s a piece. Is all fighting eradicated? Of course not. Are there moments of unhappiness? Of course. But there’s this feeling of we’ve got this and hope has been restored. It feels, they sort of come into session another real easy earmark as they come into session and they’re like, we don’t really have anything to talk about. I’m like, oh, that’s a big thing in couples counseling. I’m like nothing to talk about? Ok. So we’ll often sort of scale down, depending again on the clients if I’m seeing them weekly to every other week. If that’s still sort of our song and dance where they’re sort of coming in with scratching their heads, I’ll bring it up. Termination, as you said, Lisa is such a funny experience for some clients because some are like, yes, we’re ready this. We agree with you, this sounds right. Some are like, how actually do we feel so? We don’t want to let go. This feels so good that how about once a month? Or there’s all sorts of different ways people sort of “terminate.” But yes, and then some clients will come in and whether they’re done with therapy themselves and maybe I don’t think that they’re necessarily done, I will almost, I mean, I almost always honor if a client says, “Hey, we want to stop treatment.” Ethically of course I support it, but I also encourage them in that termination process that they still have some, here are some additional things that you guys could consider working on. Let me send you some referrals. Sometimes it is a way for a client to, if they want to try a different therapist, sometimes they use termination as a strategy, which is totally normal. So we follow up with some referrals and hopefully get them on their way. [LISA] It sounds a very gentle way of allowing the client to move on with their life in a positive way. [ERIKA] Absolutely. [LISA] So just kind of switching gears now and looking more towards relationships as a highly sensitive person, do you work with couples that maybe both are highly sensitive or one person is highly sensitive and the other person is non-sensitive? [ERIKA] Yes. I mean whether they label themselves at the onset of treatment as an HSP or not that piece maybe is sort of not yet noticed, but absolutely, you’re always going to have some sort of range on how people perceive material or how they perceive certain events. And one could easily be more sensitive than the other. Absolutely. [LISA] How do you strengthen the relationship between a highly sensitive person and a non-highly sensitive person? [ERIKA] I think there is a component to HSP, non-HSP, if we take that as a case where both have such different subjective realities, meaning the HSP, if I can just use that acronym just for ease, seize the world as they see it and the non-HSP doesn’t totally get it. There could even be so far as a judgment around sensitivity. That’s usually where you see that rupture. It’s like, what? You thought that, or you think that? And sort of a gear grind there on that experience around seeing those worlds so unbelievably different. Again, we’re all human and we very much want the other person to see our subjective reality in the same way that, of course you see it. So you see a lot of that as a major contributor to whether it’s arguments or despair or feeling misunderstood in that case. [LISA] Yes. So always wanting to be understood and heard and seen and felt whether you’re HSP or non, and especially in a relationship and someone that we spend most of our time with and that we care about. [ERIKA] Absolutely. It’s that space. Yes, exactly. [LISA] A sensitive partner may not assert themselves enough in a relationship. They may step back because they don’t want to create conflict or they might educate themselves like in the one down position. How do you work with couples that are experiencing that or are living that situation? [ERIKA] I’ve actually kind of mentioned it earlier when you’re asking me a little bit about whether I thought I was an HSP or not. Yes, there is a huge inward component. But obviously there’s lots of ways to display sensitivity. And one area, again, it depends on the client, depends on the case, but allowing, it’s a huge change agent, if we can allow our partner to see if we are sensitive about something. Of course, how we communicate that sensitivity is also a big piece of the work. But once we allow someone to see a sensitivity or some sort of infraction that they experience, usually there’s a lot of power in that space. So there’s a wonderful book called the Power of Discord. It’s about a lot of things, but around this idea around conflict can actually produce incredible inventory on the way someone thinks, what they need, what they’re experiencing. If we go too inward and we don’t allow that space to be seen then largely the non-HSP or in this case doesn’t totally know what’s happening. They know the person is feeling upset or maybe they’re withdrawing. So usually in counseling couples counseling we’ll try to create that safety. It’s twofold. Of course, like I said earlier, it’s how the HSP describes sensitivity and it’s for the non-HSP to receive that sensitivity without judgment, blame at all [LISA] As you’re explaining that, I wonder if it’s probably like family conditioning and also just their innate personality of going inward and processing it inward and not maybe speaking it exactly what is happening for them. [ERIKA] I think you’re really, yes, I think that’s spot on. A large component of it could be family of origin and what was modeled for them or what they experienced as a way to sort of cope with the said stressor is to be quiet. Or they had a family system that was just largely inward and it can be temperament-based as you had described. So, yes. [LISA] And how would you help this sensitive person in the relationship nurture that so they are speaking more of what their internal process is? Maybe they fear their partner will not be receptive to it because it’s something new that they haven’t heard and all these new things are coming out that maybe they’ve never shared before, and maybe they’re uncomfortable or can be things that are not pleasant to hear. [ERIKA] That’s another good question. So sometimes we go inward and it’s so unbelievably familiar to us that we’re not even totally aware that we’re even doing it. An event will happen and you do this sort of, I don’t know if you guys, Terry is one of my greatest mentors and he would largely call this sort of the adaptive child space, potentially again, depending on the case, but this place where you go to, and it feels automatic. It feels familiar. I’m kind of thinking of if a client is sort of stewing and an event happens and they get really upset, but that they don’t speak about it and they withdraw and they maybe do all sorts of things to sort of, again, cope with said stressor. The primary coping strategy is to not speak. So one of the big areas of work, like I was telling you a little bit about in my intro and how we work with couples is largely becoming aware of what you’re doing. It’s really, really important information if we bypass that too quickly, meaning I would want the client to go, an event happens and them to walk away within that hour or two or 10, whatever their deal is at that moment, to start to register like I’m pulling away and I’m going inward. Again, it’s Terrys language, I’m sort of doing my adaptation. We start with labeling it and really getting to know that space. If the client’s able to do that, I mean, again, that’s a huge piece to the work because now we have options. If we want to go speak to non-HSP we now have that option whereas before, if it’s automatic, we may not even know that we have an option to go speak with them. So we work in that zone around sort of again, labeling that moment or hours or whatever it is. Then it’s putting language to it. Again, I said earlier, how important language is. It’s probably the most important piece to how we communicate to our partner, which is, can you come from a place of I, this is what I experienced. This is, again some Terry’s language, what I made up. This is the story I told myself. This is how I felt, this is what I thought of. If we stay in that space of that incredible subjective, I experience, usually not always, because of course humans are complex, it allows the receiver to be able to again, learn, get incredible inventory about their partner. This is over, a course of treatment. So if we were even able to do that in session and had this experience, Erika, I went inward, I noticed it and this is what I would like to try or practice in session. So sometimes we’ll do it in session as a way of additional safety. Sometimes they’ll try it out on with themselves. Again, last piece of the work or sort of actually in conjunction is for the non-HSP to try their absolute hardest to not get into that defensive space. If they’re able negotiate that moment with themselves, their own adaptations then we usually have again, maybe not perfect communication moment, but a far better one than someone that’s gone totally inward and not expressing themselves even in the smallest bit. [LISA] Yes, that sounds amazing. Wow that is, as I said before, very powerful to be able to communicate exactly what you’re noticing inside yourself and be able to communicate that to your partner so they have a better sense of what’s going on for you and how to help you if you need help or nurture you in any way that you would want. So that leads me to my next question. I think you just touched on it too, is that resentments and it’s sensitive people can build up resentment over time. How would you work with a couple about resolving those resentments? [ERIKA] Resentments is probably like, the biggest word in couple counseling I swear. I’m laughing and probably crying too at the same time because it’s just such a complicated space. Resentments are complicated. For, in this case around sensitivities it’s really easy to store up resentments. They kind of feel like this arsenal and they are, not to get too complicated, but they create distance. They can be a wall between, and when I say wall, I mean sort of a separateness between the partnership. And in an interesting way, if you can just stay with me for a second, resentments can feel a bit like you’re a victim and interestingly enough, because of its power in your mind, it can also be an interesting one up position that I’m somehow taking on this burden that you are not, and therefore I’m mad at you. So that’s just really interesting, again, very murky space. What we teach a lot, I mean, at the end of the day, resentments, the biggest effect is the person, of course, feeling the resentment. They’re largely sort of drinking a toxic Kool-Aid that we very much do not want them to drink. So speaking again, working with that person around speaking their needs and hopefully in a clear, concise way, like I had talked about earlier. And usually where, again, resentments get the most sort of caught up into into the world of couples counseling is lack of accountability. So this is a two-prong approach where you’re working with in this case, an HSP, if they’re largely not speaking their needs, which is sort of a classic component to an HSP but to be able to speak their needs and then for partner B to receive and to be accountable. That is usually, again where we see resentment sort of their breeding ground is when partner B says, yep, yep, yep and then they forget and then partner a goes, Ugh, got to do it again myself or whatever the case is. So I’m sort of working a little bit in tandem but also sort of doing a little bit of, I don’t know, want to call it a myth buster, but like resentment is a toxic space for couples. I don’t want that distance. It feels like rust on the relationship. So we have to, as a team sort of break that mold and be like, this doesn’t feel good for the relationship. We have to be able to speak our needs in real-ish time. When I say real-ish, I mean, when you’re grounded and can use some of the tools I had just mentioned, and for partner B to receive said request, not just say yes as a sort of a check box to really think through the request and be accountable. If they’re going to say yes, yes means yes. If they’re going to say yes, but I can’t do X, Y, and Z, that’s an answer too. And partner B can also say, no, I can’t do that for X, Y, and Z reason. That also is a possibility. When someone speaks their needs, you can hardly hear the word no, but that we create that space as well. [LISA] So that’s, I hear a lot of work in that, a lot of work involved with all people, the therapist, and a couple. Everyone really has to be in it to make the change happen. [ERIKA] Yes, absolutely. Yes, I just feel like it’s resentment is such a tough space because again, it builds up and it’s again, largely because of those needs not being met. And we don’t want that build up. It’s very tough on the relationship. [LISA] What are some of the issues that cause a relationship to end, I mean, like separate, divorce, breakup? [ERIKA] I’m just thinking about your question. I think it’s when people go around, I’m just thinking like even just when couples call me and they’re in real distress. It’s when they’ve tried absolutely everything and they keep going around that same track. Usually couples will fall into a loop. They sort of like a classic. When I say loop, I mean, they have like themes to their fights. It’s like, he’s really argumentative and she’s really defensive. I mean, whatever, again, there’s a thousand loops out there, but they keep going around this exact same sort of what feels like a hamster wheel. It’s like they get into a thousand different fights, but the same loop presents, he’s combative, she’s defensive, he’s combative, she’s defensive. They keep trying and trying and trying, and then there’s sort of a despair around, oh my gosh, we keep doing this to ourselves. We’re so unhappy. So they’ll usually call, not always, of course, depending on so many different variables, but they’ll call in and they’ll try couples counseling. Again, sometimes couples counseling can be absolutely incredible and it can sort of disrupt that loop. But if we’re unable to disrupt that loop and the client again, reaches that space of despair and hopelessness, that is usually when thinking about separating, divorcing ending the relationship starts to come into purview, not believing that they can get out of this rubble essentially. [LISA] That must be hard to see or hear that as a couple’s therapist. [ERIKA] Yes, I mean, I don’t know if I can speak universally for couple’s therapists, but yes, that is a space that you know that at one point, these individuals very, very much loved each other and to see the ending of that. But I’ve also seen couples end and start different new lives and there can be a completely different turn around that, around their life story. So sometimes it actually does work out, sometimes it doesn’t, but I have to remember that piece, especially when I see a couple choosing to end their relationship that we don’t know what’s on the other side of this ending. [LISA] Yes. We just want everyone’s happiness for everyone, I think in the end, whatever that looks like for each individual. [ERIKA] Absolutely. [LISA] So what are some of the best self-care practices for couples? [ERIKA] That’s another good question. Let’s see. Well, I’m thinking about COVID-19 pandemic. That can’t be ignored right now just because it’s really brought on a lot of unique challenges to couples — [LISA] It brings people together or further apart? [ERIKA] Mostly, especially if, for those that are listening that are both working from home, healthy separateness is not a bad thing. I probably said that statement a thousand times in the last year and a half. I think some people forget that. There’s sort of this belief that you got to do everything together. That is not true. So healthy separateness, believe it or not is self-care, especially again, if you’re working from home and sort of seeing your partner day in and day out. I’m a big believer in isolated, focused time with each other that is not watching a Netflix series, but like an actual something, you know the classic sort of date night. It doesn’t have to be necessarily on a certain cadence, but without that, I think you can easily fall into a pretty thick routine and not totally be aware of maybe again, those effects. And they’re really subtle. Those effects that, again, thinking of that buildup analogy that we were talking about earlier, this one’s not as loud. But I think it can take a toll if you don’t spend any sort of “focused time” with one another in a sort of special way. How you fight, and when I think about self-care, I think about also of what takes away from self-care and toxic fighting and, or really repetitive, just unproductive fighting. It cannot just zap your day, your workday, your weekend. So I care deeply about yes, fighting in of itself is “ok” but it’s how you fight. So I would be taking a look about just sort of how you guys fight as again, as a way to continue, hopefully a more sort of harmonious relationship. Trying to think about some other important things, also finding, thinking about also like just the world of HSPs and in general, but really figuring out what works for you. So like I, Erika, I know what sets me back into my self-care. I had mentioned earlier that I’m an athlete. So for me, getting outside and running or doing some sort of exercise component to my world, it largely resets me. I mean, I don’t even have to go on anything gigantic, but it resets my mood. It brings me, when I come home, I’m just in a slightly better space. But for the listeners out there to really figure out what works for me, what sort of resets my mood, or sort of clears my cache or whatever, whatever essentially works for you and to continue bringing that back into your relationship, because again, that’s going to have the largest effect, is what you do in terms of how you take care of yourself. [LISA] I love that, Erika. It’s so inspiring too. I’m not an athlete, but I do love physical exercise and I know it does recharge me and it can really shift my mindset and I feel those endorphins flowing. I feel much, it’s very subtle. I can feel so much happier. [ERIKA] Right? And yet, sometimes you’re resistant and like, “Oh, did I really want to on a ride?” I’m like, “No, I have to. My children and my husband and my pup all need me to go on this run.” [LISA] So my last question is what is the most important thing you want listeners to know and take away from our conversation today? [ERIKA] Oh, let’s see. If I had to summarize, maybe I think taking a healthy look at your relationship, and however you are wired, whether you’re in HSP or non-HSP. And seeing, obviously it’s strength and sort of where you and the couple sort of are obviously really connected and strong at, but looking at your strength or sorry, your areas of growth and really trying to commit behind it. Meaning, so I know we had talked about resentment. We talked about self-care. We talked a little bit about fighting. I mean, obviously there’s about a hundred other related issues we could have talked about that show up in any relationship, thinking about what you personally need to work on, or the relationship needs to work on. Not to be afraid to look also back at your family of origin, to see how that played a role. Because again, you can go out and read that self-help book or listen or do all sorts of ways, which are incredibly helpful. But to toggle it back to where did I learn that from? Then the biggest component is, do I know when I’m doing it? Do I know when I’m being resentful? Do I know when my self-care is out of whack? Do I know that I’m actually maybe a bit of a toxic fighter because that’s how my parent was? Without that awareness change is really hard to be, it’s just hard to create. So to notice and take that inventory as difficult or as easy for some of us as it may be to take a look at that space and toggle it back to family of origin, and again, see if you can track it within yourself in real time to see if you can do some of these changes that we had ever so briefly talked about. [LISA] Oh, thank you. That was really beautiful. Also that, and it can be really scary to look at ourselves and think, oh my gosh, the monster’s going to come out the demons. I don’t want to open that door. And it’s usually, it’s not as bad as we think. [ERIKA] It’s usually not . I know. I know. That I totally agree with. [LISA] And how can listeners get in touch with you? [ERIKA] So I have a website, it’s probably the fastest and easiest way. It’s www, I can’t believe I still say www. That must mark my age somewhere, but trisf.com. So that’s T as in Tom, R-I-S as in Sam, F as in Frank.com. There you’ll find the relationship therapy group and its offerings along with my bio and a way to get in touch with me or our group. [LISA] Thank you so much, Erika, for coming on the show today and all of your wealth of information and just how you explain everything just so easily to hear it and understand it and really absorb it. [ERIKA] Thank you, Lisa. You had some amazing questions. Got me thinking. So I appreciate you as well and really appreciated this time. [LISA] Thank you, my listeners for tuning in today. Remember to subscribe, rate and review wherever you get your podcast. To find out more about highly sensitive persons, please visit my website at amiokpodcast.com and subscribe to my free eight-week email course to help you navigate your own sensitivities and show you that it’s okay not to take on everyone else’s problems. This is Lisa Lewis reminding each and every one of you that you are okay. Until next time. Thank you for listening today at Am I Ok? Podcast. If you are loving the show, please rate, review and subscribe to it on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you’d like to learn how to manage situations as a highly sensitive person, discover your unique gift as a highly sensitive person, and learn how to be comfortable in your own skin, I offer a free eight-week email course called Highly Sensitive People. Just go to amiokpodcast.com to sign up. In addition, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email to let me know what is on your mind. You can reach me at lisa@amiokpodcast.com. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want to professional, you should find one.