[LISA LEWIS] The Am I Ok? Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith Fringes, the Holistic Counseling Podcast, and Beta Male Revolution, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. Welcome to the Am I Ok? Podcast, where you will discover that being highly sensitive is something to embrace and it’s actually a gift you bring to the world. We will learn together how to take ownership of your high sensitivity, so you can make positive changes in your life, in the lives of others, and it’s totally okay to feel this way. I’m your host, Lisa Lewis. I’m so glad you’re here for the journey. Welcome to today’s episode of the Am I Ok? Podcast. I’m your host, Lisa Lewis. Thank you so much for tuning in. I would like to remind my listeners that I offer a free eight-week email course titled Highly Sensitive People. My email course provides weekly tools that help you feel more whole in a world isn’t exactly made for us and I show you how your sensitivity can be seen as a unique gift and how many others are just like you. To find out more about my email course, please go to my website, amiokpodcast.com. Today’s guest is going to talk to us about how an unhealed betrayal impacts your health, work and relationships. My guest today is Dr. Debi Silver. Debi is the founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute and is a holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal development expert, the author of Trust Again and is a two-time number one international best-selling author of the Unshakeable Woman and from Hardened to Healed. Her podcast from Betrayal to Breakthrough is also globally ranked with the top 1.5% of podcasts. Her recent Ph.D. study on how we can experience betrayal made three groundbreaking discoveries that changes how long it takes to heal. In addition to being on Fox, CBS, The Dr. Oz Show, TEDx and more, she’s an award-winning speaker and coach dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals, as well as any other blocks, preventing them from the health work, relationships, confidence and happiness they want most. Welcome to the show, Debi. [DR. DEBI SILBER] Aw, thank you so much. Looking forward to our conversation. [LISA] Me too. Wow, what a powerful bio you have there. So much experience. [DR. DEBI SILBER] Thank you. Just doing my thing. [LISA] You do your thing really well too. Do you consider yourself a highly sensitive person or not? [DR. DEBI SILBER] Oh, I definitely know that I’m a highly sensitive empath and like I’m sure many of your listeners, before we know we think we’re crazy, we’re ashamed for being too sensitive, and, “Oh, just get over it and why are you taking it so hard? What’s the big deal,” all these things. I just thought, what’s wrong with me? Like, why, why am I so emotional? Because people around me weren’t. And in fact, it was only until really a couple of years ago, I had a painful betrayal from my family, thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that and then it happened a few years later, this time it was my husband that was the deal breaker. So I got him out of the house, looked at the two experiences and thought, okay, well, what’s similar to these two? Of course, me, but what else? I realized I never took my highly sensitive needs seriously, and boundaries were al always getting crossed and I said, that’s it. Here I was, four kids, six dogs, a thriving business, and I enrolled in a Ph.D. program in transpersonal psychology. Then it was time to do a study so I studied betrayal and then that study made three groundbreaking discoveries. It was really in that whole process did I learn who I was. I learned I am highly sensitive and I had been denying it all those years. [LISA] What were the three groundbreaking discoveries in your study that you found or learned about? [DR. DEBI SILBER] Well, at first I was studying betrayal and post-traumatic growth. For those who aren’t familiar, I look at post-traumatic growth is like the upside of trauma, how any trauma, death of a loved one disease, natural disaster, whatever, leaves you with a new awareness, insight, perspective you didn’t have before. Maybe you lose someone you love and you realize life is short, that kind of thing. But I had been through death of a loved one, and I’d been through disease and I was like, nope, betrayal feels very different for me. I didn’t want to assume it was the same for all my study participants. So I asked him, if you’ve been through other traumas besides betrayal, is it different for you? Unanimously they said, oh my gosh, it’s so different. Here’s why, because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally, so the entire self gets shattered. Think about it, rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. When you lose someone you love, you grieve, you’re sad, you mourn the loss. You don’t necessarily lose your ability to trust. You don’t think you’re crazy. So this type of healing needed its own name, which is now called, I coined a new term post-betrayal transformation, which is the complete and total rebuild of your life and yourself after an experience with betrayal. So the first discovery was that betrayal is in fact a very different type of trauma that needs a very specific protocol to heal. Want me to go through the other two? [LISA] Yes, please do. [DR. DEBI SILBER] Sure. So the second discovery was that there’s actually this collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional so common to betrayal. It’s now known as post-betrayal syndrome. We’ve had about 80,000 people take the post-betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they’re struggling. The first thing is we’ve all been taught time heals all wounds. Well, I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that’s not true. There’s a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you’d like to share? People write things like, my betrayal happened 35 years ago. I’m unwilling to trust. My betrayal happened 10 years ago, and it feels like it happened yesterday. So we know that we can’t count on time or even a new relationship to heal betrayal. It will follow you around like a shadow until you intentionally and deliberately heal it. Every few months, I pull the stats from the quiz to see where people where people are happy to share them if you’d like. [LISA] Sure, please do. [DR. DEBI SILBER] Sure. Now imagine men, women, every age is represented just about every country, 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power, 80% are hypervigilant. 94% deal with painful triggers, the most common physical symptoms, 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues, 63% have extreme fatigue, 47% have weight changes. So maybe in the beginning you can’t hold food down later on you’re using food for comfort. 45% have digestive issues. That could be anything from Crohn’s, IBS to diverticulitis, you name it, the most common mental symptoms. 78% are overwhelmed. 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief. 68% are unable to focus. 64% are in shock. 62% can’t concentrate. You still have to raise your kids, work and imagine you can’t sleep, you have a gut issue, you can’t concentrate. That’s not even emotionally. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness, 83% are really angry, 82% are hurt, 80% have anxiety, 79% are stressed. Just a few more, here’s why I wrote my book, trust again, 84% have an inability to trust, 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they’re afraid of being hurt again, 82% find it hard to move forward, 90% want to move forward, but they don’t know how. A few things about that quiz, also, if you are highly sensitive, as staggering as these statistics are, as much of any trauma will affect someone. For someone who feels so deeply, it is inconceivable to experience a betrayal. The pain, the depth of pain is so unbearable. I mean, the beauty is you can heal from all of it, and I’m happy to share that with the third discovery. But what’s even crazier about this, about these stats, these statistics, first of all, you didn’t hear me say anything, 20%, 30%. These numbers are high. They’re also not necessarily from a recent betrayal. This could be from something that happened when you were a kid. I mean, your parent could have done something awful. Your girlfriend or boyfriend could have broken your heart in high school. That person may not know, care, or even remember. They may not even be alive. Here we are walking around with these symptoms because of something that happened decades ago. [LISA] Wow, I’m just listening and going, I’m in shock going, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Amazing. Please tell us about the third discovery. [DR. DEBI SILBER] Yes, this, for me, was the most exciting. What we learned was, while we can stay stuck for years, decades of lifetime, and so many people do, in fact most do, if we’re going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome, like I just shared to this whole rebuilt place where you’ve rebuilt yourself and your life after an experience with betrayal, you’re going to go through five now proven, predictable stages. What’s even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage. We know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. So healing is entirely predictable. I’m happy to share the five stages if you want to hear them. [LISA] Yes, please. [DR. DEBI SILBER] Okay. They’re totally mapped out in trust. Again, it’s what all of our coaches and practitioners are certified in. It’s all we do within the PBT Institute but here’s a distilled version of the stages right here. Stage one is like a setup stage. If you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with every participant, me too, was a real heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing and neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being. So if a table only has two legs, easy for that table to topple over, well, that’s us. Stage two, shock, trauma, D-day, discovery day, the scariest of all of the stages. Here’s where you receive the news that will forever change life as you’ve known it. It’s the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview. So right here, you’ve ignited the stress response. You’re now headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Your mind is in a complete and total state of chaos and overwhelm. This makes no sense. You can’t understand what you just learned, and your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model, the rules that govern you, that prevent chaos. Trust this person, don’t go there and in one earth shattering moment, every rule you’ve held to be real and true is no longer the bottom has bottomed out and a new bottom hasn’t been formed yet. So this is terrifying, scariest stage. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You’d grab hold of anything you could to stay safe and stay alive. That’s stage three, survival instincts emerge. It’s the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can’t help me get out of my way. How do I survive this experience? Where do I go? Who can I trust? How do I, how will I feed my kids? It’s practical. Here’s the trap though. Stage three, by far, hands down, is the most common place we get stuck. Here’s why. Once we’ve figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where we just came from, we think it’s good. We’re like, whew, okay, we got this. Because we don’t know there’s anywhere else to go, we don’t know. There’s a stage four or stage five. Transformation doesn’t even begin until stage four. But because we don’t know there’s anywhere else to go, we settle here and we start planting roots here. We’re not supposed to, but we don’t know that. Four things happen. The first thing is we start getting all those small self-benefits. We get to be right, we get someone to blame, we get a target for our anger, we get sympathy from everyone we tell our story to. So on some level, this feels good. I’m sure a lot of your clients and patients are in this place right here. So we plant deeper roots. Again, we’re not supposed to, but we don’t know that. Then now, because we’re here longer than we should be the mind starts going to work and thinking, doing things like, oh, well, maybe we deserved it. Maybe I’m not all that great. Maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots. Again, we’re not supposed to, but we don’t know. Then now, because these are the thoughts we’re thinking, well, this is the energy we’re putting out like energy attracts like energy. So now we’re calling situations and circumstances and relationships towards us to confirm, yep, this is where you belong, it gets worse, but I’ll get you out of here. Because it feels so bad but we don’t know there’s anywhere else to go, we’re miserable. So right here is where we start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, tv, keeping busy, reckless behavior, anything to numb, avoid, and distract ourselves from what’s so painful to feel our face, especially for the highly sensitive, because these emotions are intense. So think about it, we do that for a day, a week, a month. Now it’s a habit. A year 10 years, 20 years. I can see someone 20 years out of their betrayal and say, that emotional leading you’re doing, or that numbing in front of the tv, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? They would look at me like I’m crazy. They would say, well, that happened 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there. Does that make sense? [LISA] It does make sense, yes. I’m following you along just well. [DR. DEBI SILBER] Well, yes. So I wrote From Hardened to Healed because it is specifically for stage three, because that’s where, I mean, trust again, has all five stages, but everyone was landing in stage three. I’m like, this is crazy. The worst of it is over. You owe it to yourself to fully move through the stages. But that’s the place we get stuck anyway. If we’re willing, willingness is big word right here, willing to let go of the small self-benefits and everything we get from it grieve more than the loss, bunch of things we need to do. We move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here’s where you acknowledge. I can’t undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Just in that decision, you’re turning the stress response down. You’re not healing just yet, but at least you stop the massive damage you were creating in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like if you’ve ever moved, if you’ve ever moved to like a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever, all your stuff’s not there. It’s not cozy yet, but you’re like, okay, okay, we got this. That’s what stage four feels like. What I found so interesting to stage four though, is if you were to move, you don’t take everything with you. You don’t take those things that don’t represent who you want to be in that new space. What I found was, if your friends weren’t there for you, right here, you’ve outgrown them. So often people say what the heck? I’ve had these friends 10, 20, 30 years. Does it meet? Yes it is. You are you’re changing. If they’re gossiping, if they’re low energy, if they’re not supportive, if it was a one-sided relationship, you’re just not having it as you move to stage four. So really, so, so common to change friendships right here. Anyway, when you’ve made this stage cozy, you’ve made it mentally home, you moved to the fifth most beautiful stage, and this is healing rebirth and a new worldview, the body starts to heal. Self-love, self-care, eating well exercise, you didn’t have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now you do. Your mind is healing. You’re making new rules, you’re making new boundaries based on what you see so clearly now and you have a new worldview based on the road you just traveled. The four legs of that table, in the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental. Well, by this point, we’re solidly grounded because we’re focused on the emotional and the spiritual two. Those are the five stages. [LISA] Wow. Thank you so much for walking us through those five stages. Oh my gosh, like how long does it take to go through these stages? Or is it different for everyone? [DR. DEBI SILBER] It really has more, here I was when I was doing this study, and you’re not supposed to assume anything as a researcher, I was new with this, I didn’t know, but I assumed that the people who were the hardest hit would grow the least because they had the most to overcome. That had nothing to do with it. Willingness was probably the biggest factor. It was the ones who just put their head down and said, I’m not picking it up until I’m out the other side. They blew the doors off of, actually, there were three groups in the study who did not heal. It was the group. There was one group that was numbing, avoiding distracting, so they ran to the doctor who put them on a mood stabilizer or anti-anxiety medication, or they were just numbing, drinking, emotionally, eating whatever. They didn’t heal. May have made the day a bit easier, not without a price. The second group, this was the group where they just had their story and they were just sticking with it. That was it. Deeply stuck in stage three. They didn’t heal. The third group, this was interesting, this was the group where the betrayer had very little consequences. So maybe it was out of not wanting to break up a family, financial fear, religious reasons. That was a big one. They just did all they could to turn the other cheek and try to put it behind them. I only, I saw two things with this group. Number one, a further deterioration of the relationship and number two, this group was the most physically sick. Your broken heart just can’t handle that. [LISA] Oh, wow, a broken heart. Oof. How can we learn to trust again? [DR. DEBI SILBER] Well, it’s a process. I wrote a whole book on it. What happens is I look at, first of all, and just to back up on my story, rebuilding is always a choice whether you rebuild yourself and you move on. That’s what I did with my family. It just wasn’t an option to rebuild with them. Or if the situation lends itself, if you’re willing, if you want to you can rebuild something entirely new with the person who hurt you. That’s what I did with my husband. So not long ago, as two totally transformed people we married each other again, new rings, new vows, new dress, and our four kids in our bridal party. I’ll tell you, I’ve been in the ICU for 11 days. I’ve lost loved ones. Nothing for me was as hard as that. Once you get the heart involved, it’s a totally different thing. But people ask me all the time, can people chang? Just as the betrayed can totally be transformed, the betrayal can too. Betrayal will show you who someone truly is. It also has the opportunity to wake them up to who they temporarily became. But I look at trust as a brick wall. The only way I know of a brick wall being built is brick by brick, by brick. Every opportunity someone has to show that they’re trustworthy, that’s one brick in that brick wall. So it takes a long time. Then the person who built the brick wall just comes along and shatters the whole thing. Well, you can look at the brick wall, the rubble, and say, I don’t have the least bit of interest in watching that thing get rebuilt. Totally fine. You walk away. However, if you are willing, that would be your role and the other person has to be a really good brick layer. It goes up the same way it went up the first time, brick by brick, by brick. Every opportunity they should have to show that they’re trustworthy, that they’re different is one brick in that brick wall. What I see so often, though, is the person shatters the brick wall, the person who’s been betrayed is so heartbroken, so upset. The other person isn’t really all that interested in rebuilding it. They’re like, okay, fine, I’ll build it. No, you never feel safe. You never feel, you’re always in this heightened state of anxiety. It doesn’t work. [LISA] So what needs to happen or what does it look like for the betrayed and the betrayer to come together again, to rebuild, I guess, the relationship? [DR. DEBI SILBER] It’s a process. In fact, we have a new program called Rebuild within the PBT Institute. It is just for the betrayer because listen, there are some betrays that they’re just onto the next, there’s no remorse, no regret. I’m not talking about them, but there are some who realize, oh my gosh, I just destroyed the heart and the trust of the person, the people who really loved me and what did I do? It’s the biggest wakeup call of their lives. So we teach them how to really show up differently and how to have that deep empathy so they truly understand what the betrayed person is going through and can support them during their process. Although it’s a very personal process, and our members the betrayed, they just, we encourage them, you just get to your best physically, mentally, and emotionally without any expectation of what’s going to show up. Because we’ve seen everything happen. We’ve seen they get to that place. They’ve completely outgrown their partner. They don’t have the least bit of interest in them anymore because they realize they were settling so much. We’ve also seen people, this is so common, where if the only intention is just to find a way to be okay with that person. They will sabotage their growth. They will sabotage their healing because in a healed state, they’ve outgrown their partner, and they would rather be unhealed and have a lack of confidence or a lack of all these things just so they don’t outgrow someone. I know that sounds so crazy. I see it all the time but best-case scenario, when the betrayed person is like, that’s it, I’m healing from this physically, mentally, and emotionally, the betrayer does the same. They meet up again as two completely transform people and it’s a very different type of relationship. It’s a great relationship when they do that. [LISA] Oh, wow, I can just imagine. [DR. DEBI SILBER] That’s when you’re a power couple [LISA] How often does that happen? [DR. DEBI SILBER] Well, I mean, I’m living proof. We have some of our coaches who’ve done it, many of our members. It takes a lot of support, a lot of transformation, deep work, but it’s entirely possible. But like I said, some betrayers, they just, they don’t get it. There’s really very little to work with in that scenario or the betrayed has no interest, and that’s totally fine. But it really takes two people doing their own individual work to create new boundaries and new, just all new everything. And betrayal does, it really lends itself to creating an entirely new identity. You take all the parts you love and you leave behind everything that no longer serves. If you didn’t have your boundaries in place, if you were not honoring your, like for example we started about, you’re talking about highly sensitive, being highly sensitive. I didn’t even know I was highly sensitive until before my betrayal. So in this new marriage it’s honoring my highly sensitive self. If I don’t want to watch something because it’s too anxiety provoking, or if something just doesn’t feel right or it’s just too stimulating or there’s just too much energy and it’s freaking out my nervous system, I just don’t do it where the old me would’ve just gone along with it because it was easier. It’s just a whole different set of rules. [LISA] Wow. It does sound life-changing and a little scary at the same time. Like, whoa, what would need to happen to take that leap to go forward? [DR. DEBI SILBER] Yes, it is, but you know what, you create something magnificent, and you don’t have to do it alone. I mean, I did it alone but now there’s a whole institute and there’s a roadmap for it. When you are getting the support from people who’ve been there, who’ve done it, who know how to help, whether that’s helping you create such a powerful new version of you just on your own, or if reconciliation is something possibly in the future, either way you need that support to help you get to your best and to truly move through those five stages. [LISA] So what is the first step that someone would need to do to enter your program? [DR. DEBI SILBER] First thing is we have quizzes that show you exactly what stage someone’s in. You can just find everything at the PBT, is in Post Betrayal Transformation, the pbtinstitute.com. Then what happens is someone comes into the community, they become a member, whether it’s our five-day Trust Again program, which is like a dip your toe in thing, or we have different levels of membership. The first thing is we assess, and it takes two seconds to know what stage someone’s in and then there are certain classes, there are certain coaches, there are certain programs specifically, like let’s some say someone comes in at stage two, they take everything for stage two so that they get to stage three, so that they get to stage four and then five and beyond. So it’s really, the idea is it’s you’re coming in with the intention of moving through the stages, through that transformation and beyond. [LISA] Wow. It sounds so powerful. Is this like your life passion or this is what you’ve come here to do? [DR. DEBI SILBER] A hundred percent. I mean, either I’m the poster child for betrayal, or I was like, I’m doing something really powerful with this. It’s so interesting because I am a highly sensitive empath, and integrity is my highest value. So can you imagine a highly sensitive empath getting betrayed? It just doesn’t get worse. So it’s like, this is truly my opportunity to do something really good with something really painful and now we’re helping thousands and thousands of people do the same between our coaches and practitioners. Sometimes they just, they’re members in the community, but they’re a coach or they’re a practitioner of some kind. They’re so moved by their own transformation, they can’t help but want to share that with others. So maybe whether they’re working in the community with us or they’re just doing it on their own it has such a beautiful ripple effect. [LISA] Well, I can just imagine that, and it sounds so hopeful and especially for I’m highly sensitive as well. And integrity is my number one. Yes, it can be like, wow, what happened to my integrity? This is what I stand for and what’s just happened? I don’t feel like I’m in my integrity. [DR. DEBI SILBER] That’s why I’ve always lived very simply, and the rule was, if it’s going to hurt someone, don’t do it. I don’t know, I assumed that’s how everybody else lives, and I was always shocked and amazed that that wasn’t the case. But it’s interesting because when you move through the stages and really, when you’re in, you move out of stage three into stage four. And the relationships you have, whether it’s just friendships or partnerships or whatever, your BS meter is so strong and you’re so clear about who you are and who you will and won’t accept into your life. If you had relationships with people that were not in integrity, they just fall away because you just show up so differently. You’re such a different person, and you’re just not a match for people like that anymore. [LISA] Wow. Oh, I love that. Debi, what would you like listeners to take away from our conversation today? [DR. DEBI SILBER] It’s, I know how painful it is, and, especially as a highly sensitive person I look at other people like they all have bubble wrap on, and we don’t. So everything just penetrates so much more deeply. The good news is the lows may feel lower, the highs are higher. Healing from your betrayal, seriously, even if it happened decades ago, the highs you experience, especially because it’s earned and you feel so deeply, it’s so worth moving through it. You just owe it to yourself. I didn’t do anything anybody else couldn’t do. [LISA] Do you have a free gift you like to share with my audience? [DR. DEBI SILBER] Absolutely. We have two of our quizzes right on the site at the pbtinstitute.com. One is our post betrayal syndrome quiz. So you’ll see to what extent you are struggling. You’ll see the symptoms that are left in the wake of your betrayal, where you may be thinking, oh, it’s age. Oh, it’s stress. No, it’s not. It’s your downhill betrayal. The other quiz is our healed or hardened quiz, and you will see what stage you’re in. Everything is right at the pbtinstitute.com. [LISA] Oh, great. That will be in the show notes as well. Where can listeners get in touch with you? [DR. DEBI SILBER] They can just find everything at thepbtinstitute.com. [LISA] Okay, great. I just wanted to thank you for coming on the show today and just sharing your program and what you’ve created and really helping highly sensitive people too, to really step into themselves and who they are as a person and that that ability to feel so deeply and not having to take that on anymore to hold that like you can separate yourself and be yourself and be the person that you want to be. [DR. DEBI SILBER] Absolutely. Thank you so much. [LISA] Thanks for listening today. Please let me know what you thought of the episode. Send me an email to lisa@amiokpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe, rate and review wherever you get your podcast. To find out more about Highly Sensitive Persons, please visit my website at amiokpodcast.com and subscribe to my free eight-week email course to help you navigate your own sensitivities and to show you that it’s okay not to take on everyone else’s problems. This is Lisa Lewis reminding each and every one of you that you are okay. Until next time, be well. Thank you for listening today at Am I Ok? Podcast. If you are loving the show, please rate, review and subscribe to it on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you’d like to learn how to manage situations as a highly sensitive person, discover your unique gift as a highly sensitive person, and learn how to be comfortable in your own skin, I offer a free eight-week email course called Highly Sensitive People. Just go to amiokpodcast.com to sign up. In addition, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email to let me know what is on your mind. You can reach me at lisa@amiokpodcast.com. 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