[LISA LEWIS] The Am I Ok? Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith Fringes, the Holistic Counseling Podcast, and Beta Male Revolution, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. Welcome to the Am I Ok? Podcast, where you will discover that being highly sensitive is something to embrace and it’s actually a gift you bring to the world. We will learn together how to take ownership of your high sensitivity, so you can make positive changes in your life, in the lives of others, and it’s totally okay to feel this way. I’m your host, Lisa Lewis. I’m so glad you’re here for the journey. Welcome to today’s episode of the Am I Ok? Podcast. This is Lisa Lewis, your host. Today we’re going to be talking about psychedelic medicine. Psychedelic medicine has been a hot topic in the news lately, especially for the world of mental health and as a mental health professional myself, I’ve been following this topic as I talk to colleagues about this. The nonprofit organization called MAPS, which stands for Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, announced last November that the second phase three trial study on MDMA, which is a psychedelic medicine, was announced last November. This is the last step before getting approved by the US FDA so this drug can be approved as soon as 2024. This is a, this is big news because this study is about the treatment for PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder), so this can be such a relief for people that struggle with that disorder. So today my guests will be talking about the future of psychedelic medicine, including the diversity of challenges that psychedelic medicine can be used for, including anxiety, depression, PTSD, alcohol and substance use disorder, as well as chronic pain and cluster headaches. My guest is Matt Zemon. Matt is a dedicated explorer of the inner world and a passionate advocate for the thoughtful and responsible use of psychedelics. He has a Master of Science in Psychology and Neuroscience of Mental Health with honors from Kings College London, Matt has studied the effects of psychedelics on the mind and the potential for these experiences to serve as a catalyst for positive transformations. His work in this field is motivated by a profound desire to help people navigate the sometimes-challenging terrain of this psychedelic experience and emerge from it with a deeper sense of purpose, connection, and understanding to reclaim their true self. Matt is the author of the Amazon Bestseller, Psychedelics for Everyone: A Beginner’s Guide to these Powerful Medicines for Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, PTSD, and Expanding Consciousness. [LISA] Welcome to the podcast, Matt. [MATT ZEMON] Lisa, it’s great to be here. I’m also excited about that clinical trial for PTSD, treatment resistant PTSD and MDMA. Can I give you a little update on that? [LISA] Sure, yes. [MATT] So the results of the, the initial results came through from the phase three trial. Again, this is treatment resistant Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, so your audience can visualize veterans, first responders, victims of sexual assault where nothing has worked, they’ve tried all the different modalities available. Three sessions with MDMA and some therapy on both sides of it, and 67% no longer qualified as having PTSD. So the statistics are incredible. The results are incredible, really, really making a huge impact. Super exciting to have, hopefully that medicine re-legalized in our country here the next couple years. [LISA] Yes, yes, I agree with you. That’s huge. That can be so hopeful for people that have been suffering with PTSD and haven’t found any solution to have like a breakthrough, so that’s exciting. And can you explain to the audience what is MDMA? What, what does that stand for? [MATT] Oh, those are big science words. [LISA] They sure are. [MATT] They are indeed. So MDMA is a, it is a molecule that is, let me try to do this, Methylenedioxymethamphetamine, that sounds right. A lot of us knew it as ecstasy when we were younger or Molly. It is a stimulant that has really profound effects when used with intention, so not in a recreational setting. I’ll caution our listeners to, there was a study done where the scientist bought a bunch of street and a lot of MDMA off the street, and something like 50% of what was sold as MDMA had zero MDMA in it, and then like another quarter had some MDMA in it. So, well, your listeners may have experienced MDMA or thought they experienced it or know somebody who did and it is probable that that is not really the same as what the medical professionals are using today in these studies. [LISA] Thank you for clarifying that. I think that’s really important for listeners to know. How did you get involved or how did you get on this path of studying psychedelics? [MATT] I fell into it accidentally. I had some, I was not a big drinker, had really no drug use experience and in 2019, some friends said, “Hey, we’ve hired a guide who are going to take us on this guided magic mushroom or psilocybin journey. Do you want to come?” I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t, this doesn’t sound good to me.” But they said, “Look, you love learning and you like travel and that’s a way to explore yourself, and it’s going to be safe and try it.” So I ended up agreeing and that very first experience for me was, completely changed the way I looked and interacted with the world. I was able to reconnect with my mom who died when she was 49, I was 22, able to see a lot of behaviors that weren’t serving me well and I left that journey and decided I needed to learn a lot more about these medicines and really changed my life pretty radically following that experience. [LISA] Wow, that sounds like a profound experience. How have you been — [MATT] It really was, yes. [LISA] How have you been using your knowledge of experiences to help people or how are you putting it out in the world? [MATT] It’s interesting, when you start doing this work, when I start doing this work, I speak enough, speak about me, yeah, I did, I was, I knew this was powerful and I wanted to share all that I was learning with people as I went. So part of the process after getting my Masters in Psychology and Neuroscience was to create a book called psychedelics for everyone that was not written for medical people, but was medically reviewed, had references for anyone who wanted to check the sources, it was very accessible and answered a bunch of the questions that I had that it took me a few years to go and get all this information. So I wanted people to have an understanding of what is, what are psychedelics as a whole, what’s the history in our country from religious use to medical use to decriminalization and what are the things to be aware of and risks with them in that I went through eight different medicines and talked about how are they used, when are they used to get the risks associated with them. And for a lot of those chapters, I was able to tap really great writers to write those chapters and bring their knowledge into this book. So I really assembled a book of, I think of great content for anyone who’s interested in the space, whether it’s for them or someone they loved, or just trying to understand maybe the public policy around this. [LISA] Yes, and not all the states, it’s not legalized in all the states, the psychedelic medicines. Some are beginning to legalize them. And how — [MATT] Ketamine is — [LISA] Yeah, go ahead [MATT] Ketamine is legal in all 50 states. So that is the only psychedelic that you can take anywhere in America today, you could talk to a doctor, get a prescription, and have a ketamine psychedelic experience. But you’re right, only Oregon and Colorado have legalized or decriminalized some psychedelic medicines and created framework for psychedelic therapy and then a number of cities have done things. But yeah, ketamine is the only one that people have access to across the states. [LISA] Ok. And have you heard how that’s going, the results of that, the effects? Has it been successful or people finding, wow, this is really changing and I’ve done, I’ve tried years of therapy and this is really making a difference? [MATT] Absolutely. There’s a number of studies that are out there that range from studies on people doing intravenous ketamine to at home oral ketamine and the results for things like depression, anxiety, OCD, eating disorders, alcohol use are pretty incredible. Yeah, people are finding a lot of relief. The one huge difference between ketamine and the existing treatments with antidepressants are side effects as an example. So many of us who use antidepressants know that there’s gastrointestinal issues, there’s sexual dysfunction, memory loss, weight gain in the youth. There’s sometimes suicidal ideation. There’s, it’s a pretty high price tag of side effects. None of those exist with ketamine. So yeah, I think people who are, who antidepressants are not working for or saying, great, here’s something else and I think some who are getting relief from antidepressants are choosing ketamine to see if they get away from side effects and try something different because ketamine works on glutamate. It’s also a psychedelic, antidepressants and see how it goes for you. So it’s exciting to see people having a choice now after decades of really antidepressants being the only option. [LISA] Have you heard, as far as like ketamine, is it does it take like three to six sessions, 10 sessions? Is there a set number? [MATT] Yeah, the best practice is typically four to six sessions in a month, and you get that baseline dose. Then depending on how you react and what you’re well, you’re in, the reasoning behind it the doctor may say, yeah, maybe you should be on a schedule once every few months or once every few weeks, or maybe just when there’s episode in your life you need booster. It really ranges in the person, but no circumstances can it be an everyday medicine. It either works and you’re on some type of schedule like I just talked about or doesn’t work and you go on something else. [LISA] And I’ve heard, and just through what I’ve read, that like ketamines also, you have a, you’re working with a doctor, I don’t know if that’s a medical doctor or a psychiatrist, in addition to having like integration sessions with a therapist to integrate what the changes that you’ve noticed with inside yourself and integrate that. I guess that helps with the mind shift. [MATT] So let’s talk, this is a really important question because not all ketamine providers have the same philosophy. There are some ketamine providers who believe this is just a biochemical reaction. So come into our clinic, put you on a chair, put an IV in your arm under your vitals, after an hour I’m going to send you on your way, you recover, send you on your way. They don’t do preparation work or what you’re referring to as integration work afterwards. From the research I’ve read, that’s not the best practice. The best practice is to have intention setting and someone to help unpack it. That person who helps you can be a licensed therapist or can be a coach. That’s not the credentials that are necessarily important, but it’s having somebody who understands the power of these medicines and can help you explore what it means to you, whatever you saw during your session. So I’d encourage anybody who’s looking at ketamine provider to ask, how do you provide it, what is your philosophy, am I going to get preparation to integration work? If the answer is no, you can supplement that somewhere else, but at least you know to do that. Yeah, so definitely ask some questions. Not all providers are the same. You asked about popularity as well. I think six years ago there were maybe 70 ketamine clinics in America, and now there’s, I don’t now, 500 or 700. So it’s definitely becoming more and more popular. But yeah, and I’m a fan and buyer beware, ask the questions about who you’re going to work with before making a decision. There’s more than one option out there. [LISA] Great. Thank you for clarifying that. That is really important, I think, as a therapist to ask those questions and know what you’re getting yourself into and what you can expect as far as results. How do you see or know, or maybe from experience, how does the psychedelics, how does it work on anxiety and depression, PTSD? [MATT] There’s some debate on exactly how it works, but I think this ties into this podcast, this whole notion of, am I ok? I think a lot of people in the traditional medical model have been given some bad information. They were told you’re not okay, that you have a chemical imbalance, that there’s something wrong with you, that you’re broken, and that you need to take some type of psychiatric medicine for the rest of your life or for a long period time. The science behind it, I think a lot people who were prescribed antidepressants over the last 30 years were told, oh, it’s because you have a problem. I’ll give you serotonin and we’re going to do this. It’s, none of that really is true. What psychedelics, I believe does is it’s a biochemical, psychosocial spiritual journey. So when you take this medicine you are, yes, there’s a biochemical thing happening, but there’s also this remembering of who you are and this connection with your true self. [MATT] It can stop the, or pause the repetitive thought patterns in your brain, which allows you to think in a way that you might not have thought before. So the analogy often used is, imagine a ski slope and everybody’s skiing down it, and you keep getting into the same tracks on the same runs over and over and over as we age. Well, psychedelics can put a fresh coat of powder on that mountain so you can ski all over it again, just like you did when you were younger. That break from how we normally think can be enough to be a catalyst for a new way of thinking and that’s really exciting. So it can connect you with a higher power, be a catalyst for a new way of thinking, and and help you remember that you are okay, you are enough, you are loved and all of that then becomes a catalyst for change. So I always tell people, look, I don’t believe psychedelic is a cure. It’s not a magic bullet, but it is a catalyst for really healthy lifestyle change. And that can look like a bunch of things depending on what your intentions are and why you found your way to this type of medicine. Does that make sense, Lisa? [LISA] It does. That makes perfect sense. I love your explanation there. As I’m listening to you, I’m wondering people that are listening, and they may think, well, what does that mean, spiritual? Does that mean I have to be I have to believe in God, or some religion? Do I have to have a spiritual connection to something greater than me to have this work? What do you think about that? [MATT] You know what I love about this, Lisa, is part of the whole point of this is you don’t have to do anything. You can be, I believe that psychedelics show people that they’re deeply connected to every other person on this planet, and they’re deeply connected to nature, and they’re deeply connected into this higher power or energy or whatever. It’s that, however that person defines it. But if you don’t have, you don’t, you’re not required to believe any of that. It’s going to be, if this is your journey, this is your life. Part of what this is doing is empowering you to take control, to reclaim your true self, to not give up your agency to anybody who says, I know what’s better for you than you do and to take that forward into the world, that to go forward saying, I am okay, and this is what I believe, and this is how I’m going to act to live my best life. [LISA] Wow, that’s really nice. Thank you for that message. How does psychedelics work with eating disorders, through your studies or from what you’ve gained? [MATT] Yeah, it’s interesting. So when we think about an eating disorder, we obviously can, we can look at the end product, which is somebody is restricting calories. But one of the questions is what’s caused that behavior? Then I think in the psychedelic research, the idea of that some trauma or processing of information has led to this behavior no different than the trauma or processing of information that leads people to become overeaters or addicted to substances or addicted to work or any other type of behavior that doesn’t serve them. So the mechanism of action as far as we understand with eating disorders is similar to these other ones I talked about. That’s let’s pause them the way we’ve been thinking. Let’s remember how we used to think before we were restricting calories. Let’s try to get to this root of I’m loved and I don’t need to have whatever image in my body, isn’t the actual real image in my body. I can let that go. Then ideally the medicine can help people say, okay, I can let all of that go and start these behaviors moving forward, which would lead to the, to me having again, a healthier life, life with family and on and on. But I think you can apply that same process of thinking to really any behavior that doesn’t serve people, which is why we’re seeing and again, there’s over 300 academic institutions studying psychedelics now. We’re seeing results for a number of behaviors that it just works. It works for alcohol, it works for overeating, it works for eating disorders, it works for OCD and on and on and on. [LISA] Oh, that’s wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. And for listeners that are listening going, well, I think I want to try that, or I know someone that may want to try that, where would they go to find a clinic or if this is legal in their state? [MATT] Yeah, so let’s walk through all options available to your listeners. Option number one is ketamine. Go to your psychiatrist or doctor, go online and look for a ketamine clinic, lots of options for ketamine and ask those questions that we talked about. For other medicines, psilocybin and MDMA specifically, or really any other psychedelic, if you want to stay in America and do those legally you’re going to have to find a clinical trial. There you can go to the US.gov, Type in clinical trials or just medical, clinical trials and see what comes up. The next option is to go to a country where psychedelics are legal. So you can fly to Jamaica, The Bahamas, Costa Rica, Peru, Mexico, the Netherlands. Those are the big ones, I think for psychedelic tourism, for lack of a better word, that have programs. Then your final option is to find what we would call an underground provider that’s either doing them in a ceremonial, typically doing them in a ceremonial or for religious purposes and work with one of those. Those are harder to find for the average person. [LISA] Great, thank you. Great recommendations there. I want to go back to the clinical trial and if you can explain where we are, we’ve just completed this second phase, and then there’s one more phase to complete with the clinical trial before the FDA decides yes or no about approving the MDMA [MATT] No, they finished the clinical trials, so now we’re, they’re in the data analyzing portion of the process, and they’re presenting that data to, that data is all being reviewed, and then it’ll go through the FDA, it’s going through the FDA process. So all the trials have been complete for that, for this particular one, for post-traumatic stress disorder and MDMA. [LISA] Oh, wow. Thank you for that update. If it is approved, who would that, where would MDMD be, I guess, given to, who would be able to provide it? [MATT] Great question. This is a medical model, so it is, and they’re still negotiating those details. But it does look like it’ll be a couple people in the room. One will be some type of licensure, one will not, but those detail of exactly how they’ll be provided, not yet. [LISA] Got it. Thank you. Thank you so much for giving us that update. As my podcast is about am I ok, and geared towards highly sensitive people and highly sensitive people can be sensitive to drugs, would you have any recommendations for people that you know are sensitive some people are sensitive, just taking aspirin, and how would you explore that? [MATT] So you’re talking about sensitive people with psychedelics? [LISA] Yes. [MATT] When you talk about sensitive, do you mean emotionally sensitive or do you mean their reaction to medicine is high, is a higher reaction than traditional? [LISA] Well, it’s highly sensitive people that identify with sensory processing sensitivity, so they might have heightened, some of their senses may be heightened or they are sensitive to medicine, they can be sensitive to food. [MATT] Makes total sense. So I think my general approach to all psychedelics is to start slow and go easy on yourself, so if maybe session one is not a big dose, but it’s more of a test dose and see how you react and just get through that first dose and not maybe try to go for all the healing that is possible through that journey. Then after a first dose, as you have an idea of how it’s going to work for you, then you can ramp up the amount. Of course, for everybody, I do recommend work with somebody who’s an expert in this. So if you’re going to work with a medical professional in the ketamine space, find someone who really knows what they’re doing when it comes to ketamine and whatever the reason is that’s brought you there. If you’re going to work with a facilitator that is not medical whether it’s in international tourism or underground here in the States, again, make sure they are experienced with what they do and can help create a safe container for you to be successful. When you have what’s called source, set and setting all taken care of, the probability of a challenging experience is much, much less. So yeah, so lower doses as you’re starting and work with experience facilitator and have somebody on the front and back to help you prepare and integrate. [LISA] Oh, that’s great. Thank you. I love that. So Matt, what would you like listeners to take away from our conversation today? [MATT] That’s a good question, Lisa. I wrote the, this book, Psychedelics for Everyone was not intended, it’s not intended that everybody should take a psychedelic. I really wanted to provide information so that people can make an informed decision on whether this type of medicine would be good for them, would be good for someone they love or might be good for society and change the way they vote. I think, I didn’t know that anyone born 1971 until today, we’ve lived our whole lives in a prohibition. Like we knew about the alcohol prohibition, but no one called our, called my attention, at least to the fact that we’re living in a prohibition against these drugs. I just thought we were being told science, drugs are bad, they’re going to fry our brains, we’re going to get away. The whole, this is your, the frying Frank ad campaign. Only once I’ve got into this that I realized this wasn’t based on science at all and the risks of things like alcohol and tobacco far outweigh the risks compared to things like psilocybin in MDMA. So I really would encourage people to to think about their feelings about drugs in general and to question where those feelings came from and whether it’s my book or whether it’s Michaels’ How to Change Your Mind, which is not just a book, but it’s a great Netflix series to look into this and decide what’s right for them and not just hand over again, hand over the authority to the teachers and the government and the doctors have been giving us information that might not necessarily be the correct information for all these years. [LISA] I love that like, take power of yourself, take charge of yourself, do your research, do your homework, make your own decisions, and then shop around, see what works for you, what doesn’t work for you perhaps [MATT] Absolutely. And remember that there is no magic cure that that these are a catalyst for change. I think that these medicines are fantastic for reminding you to take it full circle to this podcast that you’re okay, that you are enough, that you are loved, and that you have a, failure’s not an option. You’re born and at some point you’re going to die and everything in between is learning, healing and growing and that’s all. I think these medicines are just great teachers when it comes to that. [LISA] Yeah, I love that. Love that. Where can listeners get in touch with you? [MATT] I have a website which is mattzemon.com and there’s some videos on different types of psychedelic medicines. There’s a free guide to micro-dosing, so people are, there’s information on my speaking all there. My book Psychedelics for Everyone is available everywhere books are sold. There’s an audible book for people who like listening rather than reading physical copies. Then I’m really active on LinkedIn, so if want to reach out, ask questions, that’s a great place as well. I’m here to serve, so don’t be shy if you have a question. [LISA] Great. Thank you so much for coming on this show today. All of that information will be on the show notes. Your book sounds amazing and I love your message. I love how you’re putting it out there in that you are just available to serve and help people really just become their, like you said, their true self, who they really want to be. And sometimes we have things that happen to us along the way that take us away from our true self and we can come back to our best self. [MATT] Absolutely. That was really well said. [LISA] Thank you everyone for listening. Please let me know what you thought of the episode. Send me an email to lisa@amiokpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe, rate and review wherever you get your podcast. To find out more about Highly Sensitive Persons, please go to my website at amiokpodcast.com, and while you’re there, subscribe to my free eight-week email course to help you navigate your own sensitivities and just show you that it’s okay not to take on everyone else’s problems or issues. This is Lisa Lewis, reminding each and every one of you that you are okay. Until next time, be well. Thank you for listening today at Am I Ok? Podcast. If you are loving the show, please rate, review and subscribe to it on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you’d like to learn how to manage situations as a highly sensitive person, discover your unique gift as a highly sensitive person, and learn how to be comfortable in your own skin, I offer a free eight-week email course called Highly Sensitive People. Just go to amiokpodcast.com to sign up. In addition, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email to let me know what is on your mind. You can reach me at lisa@amiokpodcast.com. 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